End-Point Assessments (EPA's) with Nikki Juffs

Mark Simpkins (00:02.118)
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of FE Gold, your source for real talk and real solutions in the world of further education. I’m your host as always, Mark Simpkins, here to bring insights that take your provision to the next level. And today, FE Gold is delighted to welcome Nicky Just. Nicky is manager director at Advanced EPA. Welcome Nicky, how are you today?

Nikki Juffs (00:31.274)
Yeah, I’m all good Mark, thank you, hope you are.

Mark Simpkins (00:34.2)
I’m very good, thank you. At this time of recording, we’re having a little bit of a mini heat wave here. it’s very nice. I’m enjoying the weather so far. But before we kind of crack into onto today’s topic, tell us a little about you and a little bit about Advanced EPA.

Nikki Juffs (00:40.684)
Yeah.

Nikki Juffs (00:52.444)
Okay, thanks Mark. So like you say, I’m Nicky Jufs, Managing Director here at Advanced EPA. And as of today, we are an Ofqual recognised Endpoint Assessment organisation. Thank you very much. We’re so pleased to have got this far on the journey. So Advanced EPA, like I say, are now an Endpoint Assessment organisation, recognised by Ofqual covering eight standards.

Mark Simpkins (01:04.09)
Yay, congratulations.

Nikki Juffs (01:20.3)
Myself, I’ve been in the education business for over 25 years and I’ve had lots of different roles from assessor, IQA trainer, working in awarding organisations and then employing assessment organisations. And Advanced EPA was set up at the back end of last year to come in as the new kids on the block from another EPAO that I worked at but the company decided to close.

we sort of like people were saying to me, Nikki, please continue. And that’s where advanced CPA has actually come from.

Mark Simpkins (01:56.796)
Great. And so, you you’ve kind of given us a little hint as to what today is going to be all about in terms of this pod. So we are going to be discussing kind of all things, I guess, endpoint assessment, which obviously is EPA. And obviously with Nicky’s extensive experience in this field, we’re going to talk about endpoint assessment organizations or EPAOs. We’re going to talk a little bit about how providers can go about choosing.

you know, kind of which ones to work with and, you know, also what providers can do if they’re considering moving from one EPAO to another. So we’ll kind of go into the nuts and bolts of that. And then hopefully, you know, we’ll try and squeeze some helpful tips and guidance from you in terms of preparing apprentices for Gateway. So lots to get through today. So let’s start right at the beginning, Nicky. So, you know, can

walk us through the process of how a new organization becomes an EPAO or not necessarily a new organization, perhaps an existing provider perhaps.

Nikki Juffs (03:05.612)
Yeah, of course, Mark. Yeah. And it’s, you know, it is a long process. I will say that to everybody out there. And having been through Ofqual recognition twice, people say I must be crazy. Yes, I am crazy. Like a challenge, but it is a long process. It can take between nine and 12 months. And, you know, there really needs to be that dedication from either

know, finances, the bosses, this is exactly what the direction that they want to go in to become an end point assessment organisation. So there needs to be the funding backing there and fully understanding the general conditions of recognition, which is the Ofqual handbook. Because without having the Ofqual recognition, you don’t become an end point assessment anymore. That is the route.

So it’s being able to, like I say, fully understand the conditions and bringing in line all the policies, the procedures, the ways of working and the finances that are meeting all those conditions and there are a lot of them. So it does take that time to do that. You need a clear governance structure. So a board of directors or some kind of governance. So there’s that independence

So especially if you’re a training provider that wants to become an end point assessment, there needs to be some clear separation between the two and also understand about the risks that’s associated with becoming an end point assessment organisation.

Mark Simpkins (04:43.034)
It sounds very similar, actually, to some extent, somebody or a group of people, or, you know, two people who sort of want to set up a new training provider, because ultimately, you have to go through the same process of, you know, getting on to APA, which is what it is now and having all those policies and procedures and understanding the funding rules and understanding them which standard. So it’s, you know, I mean, I know that takes a lot of time, obviously, to go ahead and do another as well. But it sounds kind of similar in terms

the pieces of the puzzle you need to put together.

Nikki Juffs (05:14.72)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there’s a lot of pieces of that puzzle, you know, and with Ofqual, I think people need to remember that Ofqual are a regulator and they base their decisions based on risk. So that’s really important to, you know, to really think about is, you know, what risk would you put on yourself if that’s how you, you know, if that’s what you’re looking to become. But, you know, once you become Ofqual recognized as I am, it’s then go through the process of getting on APAR as an end point assessment organization. So this, this,

Mark Simpkins (05:22.886)
Mm -hmm.

Mark Simpkins (05:44.07)
Of course.

Nikki Juffs (05:44.704)
There’s those different stages, but your big piece is the off -qual recognition.

Mark Simpkins (05:49.692)
So yeah, so tell us a little bit for those people that are kind of out there who are unsure, that what are the main responsibilities of an EPAO in the apprenticeship kind of ecosystem?

Nikki Juffs (06:02.058)
Okay, yep. So, end point assessment came in when standards was brought out. know, frameworks were sort of passing through when standards came out. And end point assessment organisations were put in as the independent people at the end of that apprenticeship. And the best way that I describe it to anybody who’ll listen to me is, you your provider, your college, anybody who’s delivering that on programme are likely driving instructors.

Okay, and then when it comes to end point assessment, it’s a different person, it’s independent, it’s the driving test person that then will check a plan and say, yes, you’ve met that criteria. And that’s the easiest way to try and explain it to people. So end point assessment are there and it’s really maintaining that independence and objectivity around what that apprentice has achieved. So it’s going over, right, they’ve been on programme,

And what the end point assessment organisation then does is assess their knowledge, skills and behaviours. And we do that by working to the assessment plan which is issued and that shows that all EPAOs work to that same standard. So we’re also responsible for developing and validating assessment instruments. So that could be to support the apprentice, to support the providers, but also our internal

instruments that we use as well to do the assessments, to carry out the assessments. So we have internal quality assurance processes, again making sure that we’re meeting the requirements of the assessment plan. We’re responsible for the certification at the end. When the apprentice, when they do complete and what grade they get, we have to sort out the certification at the end. And it’s also around that clear communication.

we have to be continuously improvement. there’s like the continuous improvement cycle as there would be, like you say, in a provider, know, we’re doing exactly the same thing. So I still work from equip because it just makes it easier for me just to work through those processes. And, you know, we gather feedback, you know, we will get feedback from apprentices, employers, providers, because to do that, again, it fills into your quality cycle, really.

Nikki Juffs (08:25.676)
And it’s all about, again, the data management, but the confidentiality of that data management as

Mark Simpkins (08:31.942)
I love the analogy of a driving test because it does make it really clear to people exactly what it means, right, for those who don’t know.

Nikki Juffs (08:40.94)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, you know, when, when EPA first came out, it was like, well, how are we going to try and explain this? And no matter how you explain it, that is the easiest way for people to Right. So you training provider, yeah, they do the learning. So you drive in instructor and then you go to test at the

Mark Simpkins (09:00.774)
So as an apprenticeship provider, working with an EPAO is absolutely critical. You can’t get away with it because if you’ve got apprenticeships that are on a standard and they’re going through a standard, they must go through EPA at the end. So in terms of providers, when they’re looking, what should they prioritize when choosing to work, obviously, with an EPAO?

Nikki Juffs (09:28.608)
Yeah, I mean, they should be doing a lot of research. have to say that, you know, don’t just go with the people that you know, you know, that’s not a case of that’s the right EPAO for you. And, you know, and I have been on the other side of it where I’ve had to look for EPAOs as well. So I think the big important bit is the quality and the reputation of that end point assessment organisation.

looking at the assessment tools. So what assessment tools do they provide to help your delivery team but also to help your apprentices? Do they align with your delivery models? It’s also important to check the coverage. Do they have availability? Are you going to get your apprentices to Gateway and they’re going to have to wait three months? I feel that is so unfair because these apprentices work so hard to get to Gateway. They’re all excited and motivated.

on by the way, you know, it’s going to be another 12 weeks before you get your end point assessment. So check that, check about the leading times for their availability. You know, check their service level agreements, sort of what onboarding process do they have, cost of course and the value for money, you know, that does need to be in there.

How flexible is that end point assessment organisation going to be? Because yes, we must stick to the assessment plan. We do sit with inside the off -call conditions, but there’s ranges to be flexible. So it’s also looking at that. And I think about what feedback are you going to get from your EPAO? Yeah, what reports will you get from them? And I think the biggest important one for me is about that cultural fit and partnership approach,

Yes, we’re independent. We are an independent. We have to be. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t then fit in to align to the culture of the providers. Because as far as the apprentice is concerned, they don’t see a massive difference. We want to see them as seamless because they’re nervous enough as it is. So I think that is important.

Mark Simpkins (11:43.162)
Yeah, that’s there’s a huge amount to consider that when you think of all those things that you just rallied off in terms of considerations, how much, you know, how much influence then do employers typically have in terms of, you know, which GPIO selection, you know, that the provider should go with do you

Nikki Juffs (12:00.512)
Yeah. When they first started out, employers should have been making the choice. That changed last year and it came to the provider or college to be able to choose their own point assessment organisation. However, I think it’s really important that the employer is part of this process because if the employer is part of the process,

They’re going to feel more part of that journey and you know and understand what needs to be done They’ll they’ll you know that they know how to dedicate their time But to be honest, it depends on the employer the size of the employee, you know We’ve got some really good big employers out there that really take this seriously and then you’ve got the ones that you know Just want the apprentice on board, but don’t want to get involved But I think that’s where you sort of like you can

the disparity between the on -programme delivery and what the employer is thinking that they want. You’ve got to be able to join it together. The apprentice needs to see that what they’re learning on programme is relevant to their job with their employer.

Mark Simpkins (13:10.956)
I think it’s even more important if an employer reference is part of one of those assessment methods as part of the end point assessment, right? Because they need to be fully aligned as to what they need to do at the end in terms of their own responsibilities.

Nikki Juffs (13:25.964)
Absolutely. Good evidence from an employer is witness testimonies, statements. And if they don’t understand the apprenticeship, how are they going to do that effectively and really help their apprentice? But also when it comes to gateway, that is a three way meeting between the employer, the provider and the apprentice. They all three need to be sat there going, yes.

we believe that apprentice has met and is competent in all those KSBs. And if again, they don’t understand that, how can they then put their signature to that gateway? So I think it’s important that employers are up to speed right from the very beginning.

Mark Simpkins (14:12.048)
Yeah, sure. So what would you say makes a successful partnership between Provider and

Nikki Juffs (14:16.204)
Thanks.

Nikki Juffs (14:21.098)
I think for me, I know when I work with my providers, I just think it’s important to understand the business that you’re to be working with. And I think that works both ways. It’s about being open and transparent. I think that’s really, really important to be able to work together and really sort of like laying out how you want to work together.

You’ll get some providers that want regular meetings, you’ll get some that just don’t want that. Don’t force things onto people, but just agree how that service level is actually going to work between you. I think that’s important.

Mark Simpkins (15:10.256)
Yeah, for sure. if those will be providers out there who perhaps aren’t getting the best service or the service that they expected or want from their EPA, EPAO, how easy or difficult is it for a provider to switch from from one to another, let’s

Nikki Juffs (15:30.048)
Okay, it’s not difficult, but I think it’s perceived as being difficult. a lot of the time, providers might just say, just don’t have the time to be able to do that. But, you know, think about your apprentices, you know, they are at heart of everything that we do. That’s why we do our job, because we want these apprentices to do

and what’s best for them. And if that means seeking another end point assessment organization that is gonna give us better service, that is gonna give us better resources, then really do invest that time. Because if you’ve got a good EPAO, they will do an onboarding with you, they will explain how it works and really take a lot of the pressure away from you and explain to you how that switch can actually take place. So in answer mark, know, don’t be afraid.

to look to switch, I think it’s important that people do, if they’re not getting the service, look around.

Mark Simpkins (16:33.114)
Yeah, I that’s key. what I guess what are the potential risks or downsides to change in EPAO that the provider should be aware

Nikki Juffs (16:44.138)
Yeah, so don’t be jumping from one quickly into another. It’s like what I said earlier, you know, do your research, have your meetings with the different EPAOs, really lay out what it is you’re looking for and get that feel on whether you think that EPAO is actually going to work with you and has that same drive. Because, you know, again, that’s what I found before, you know, I’ve had somebody, you know, ring around different EPAOs and they will really pick up whether they’ve

a vibe straight away with that person. So do your research. If you’ve got apprentices that you’re ready to switch, has this new end point assessment organisation got the availability, got the resources? Because what you don’t want to do is jump into a situation where they say, right, okay, yeah, yeah, come on, welcome. Or by the way, we haven’t got the resource at the moment and you’re just stuck in that same position. So it’s important again to do that research and have those conversations.

it’s down to being that open and transparent again.

Mark Simpkins (17:44.174)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so let’s move a little bit to Gateway and Endpoint Assessment itself. you know, before we kind of wrap this up, I do want to grab some nice little hints and tips and stuff from you so, you know, our listeners can take that forward and stuff and, you know, implement it into their businesses. What advice, you know, what is the best advice you can give to providers to effectively prepare their apprentices for EPA?

Nikki Juffs (18:14.516)
Okay. My big line at the moment is, know, EPA is not just for Gateway. You know, it doesn’t begin at Gateway. How many, you know, providers I’ve worked with that start to bring in EPA about two weeks before the apprentices get into Gateway? No, no, no, no, no, no. EPA starts at you sign up for the apprenticeship program. Okay. That is when it starts because what that apprentice is actually doing is working towards their end point assessment.

over those 12, 18, 24 months, however long of a programme. So build into your curriculum, build into your induction, end point assessment, introduce the assessment plan, that’s your Bible, and that’s what I say to everybody, apprentices need to understand the assessment plan, because if they don’t see an assessment plan, how do they know what and why they’re working towards something? So if I can give the biggest tip of all, that is it, build in from induction.

and then every single interaction you have with that apprentice whilst on programme, bring in the assessment plan and end point assessment.

Mark Simpkins (19:22.758)
Well, I mean, let’s go back to your analogy here and think about when you learned to drive, right? You had your driving lessons with your instructor like you would have with your apprenticeship provider during that piece of training. Outside of that, you’re expected to practice and go out with your parents or whatever it is in your own vehicle and so on and so forth. But obviously that time that you have with your driving instructor, you are working towards.

The driving test. It’s exactly the same,

Nikki Juffs (19:54.028)
It is, it is absolutely. know, so think of the assessment plan as the sign off for your driving test and that is those knowledge, skills and behaviours that you need to be able to turn into real work scenarios at that end point assessment. End point assessment is not there as a test or to catch anybody out.

It’s there for apprentices that have been on programme to come to us and showcase and shine what they’ve learnt over that

Mark Simpkins (20:29.798)
Have you seen any effective, I guess, mock EPA processes? Because a lot of trading providers that I work with do set up some kind of mock EPA process prior to Gateway to almost try and prepare apprentices for that external scrutiny which they will get when they move into EPA. So have you seen anything particular that works well? Would you say that’s a good way to do things?

Nikki Juffs (20:59.488)
Yeah, so definitely mock is that way forward, Mark. You’ve got to be able to do mock assessments. You’ll find that most EPAOs where the assessment plan holds a knowledge test, there’ll be mock tests that the EPAO will provide. Use them, you know, really do use them and, you know, get the apprentices to do their assessment under EPA conditions. You know, if you’ve got

If you’ve got the resources, get another assessor to come in independently to do the mock. That is really, really good. Advanced EPA, we’ve got mock assessment reports that you could work from. We’ve got the mock testing and same with a lot of other EPAOs, that’s what they have. But the most important thing is when any provider or any college or anybody that’s delivering a mock test,

Don’t go through it and say, well done, that was great. Don’t give a grade because what happens then is they come to end point, the apprentice will come to end point assessment, might get a pass, but they’re saying, well, I got a distinction in my mock. And it’s like, well, yeah, but you know, we can only go off as end point assessment organisations, how the apprentice performs on the day. So that’s an important tip to remind apprentices when you’re doing mock that that’s all it is, is mock doesn’t count towards.

any grading.

Mark Simpkins (22:28.028)
Absolutely. I think the key to that though is that because you do it in that scenario based situation, that you’re able to provide that feedback in order to stretch and challenge them to get the better grades, right? yeah, and so yeah, I’d say for sure that some of the providers I work with that have that process are the impact that’s coming through in terms

Nikki Juffs (22:42.956)
That’s

Mark Simpkins (22:56.752)
you know, the gradients is clear to see.

Nikki Juffs (22:59.754)
Yeah, yeah and like you say, know, when you’re your mocks, make sure that the apprentice, whoever’s doing the mocks, got the assessment plan in front of them because it literally is that tick sheet of saying, yes, that’s what I was heading for and that’s what I managed to cover. So that is, I’ll say it again, that is the Bible of your assessment, is the assessment

Mark Simpkins (23:23.792)
Before we finish, Nicky, I just want to ask you about common mistakes that you’re finding and seeing out there. And this might be common mistakes by providers in terms of working with EPAOs. It might be common mistakes that either tutors or trainers are not implementing as part of preparation for the gateway and endpoint assessment. What do you see out there that trained providers could be doing better?

Nikki Juffs (23:53.94)
Okay, so generally, some of the things that I’ve already covered, so it’s getting the EPA in early, so start it from induction, introduce the assessment plan at induction, the amount of apprentices that we have sometimes that come to employ an assessment, and we ask them, have you seen an assessment plan? No. You might as well just walk in blind because you don’t know what you’re working into. So that’s so, important, simple, but important.

The other thing, the other area is reasonable adjustments. know, training providers, colleges work with these apprentices for a long time. We get them for 45 minutes, could be two hours, depending on the end point assessment. But, you know, if there is a reasonable adjustment that needs to be put in place, then put it in place. Don’t disadvantage the apprentice, you know.

you know, I forgot or I didn’t think we would be able to do that. Speak to your end point assessment organisation, you know, talk to them about the apprentice. This is, you know, this is how the apprentice is, this is, you know, it could be, could even be a mental health, you know, something like that that we need to talk about and we really need to take this into consideration because there’s too many apprentices that aren’t turning up for their EPA because of nerves.

And a lot of that is because they don’t understand the process.

Mark Simpkins (25:25.936)
Makes an awful lot of sense. Makes an awful lot of sense. great. Well, I mean, we’ve got lots of hints and tips and guidance on what to do, what’s good practice, and perhaps what we shouldn’t be doing, Nicky. So thank you so much for your insights today. Nicky, before we kind of wrap things up, can you tell us if somebody wanted to get hold of you or, you know, obviously look into advanced CPA a little bit more, how would they do

Nikki Juffs (25:52.408)
great Mark, thank you. So they can contact me direct. So it’s nicky at advancedcpa .co .uk. Please do drop me an email. Or you can look through our website. Our website is now live for end point assessment. So that’s advancedcpa .co .uk. You’ll be able to go onto there and contact us via the website. But I’m happy to talk through anything, even if they just wanted to ask a question regarding something that I’ve covered

you know on this chat then do please feel

Mark Simpkins (26:24.582)
Great. Thank you, Nikki, so much. And congratulations once again. You’ve got a busy few months ahead of you, I’m sure.

Nikki Juffs (26:31.542)
Definitely, but thanks Mark, thank

Mark Simpkins (26:33.882)
No problem at all. So that’s a wrap on this edition of FE Gold. I’m sure you would have gained some valuable tips and inspiration to improve your further education provision. As always, if you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell your connections, friends, colleagues, and that will only help it grow. But for now, this has been FE Gold with me, host, Mark Simpkins. Thank you for stopping by.