Employer Engagement in the Curriculum with Vicky Bohan

Mark Simpkins (00:03.543)
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Effie Gold, your source for real talk and real solutions in the world of further education. And as always, I’m your host, Mark Simpkins, here to bring insights that will take your provision to the next level. And today I’m delighted to invite Vicki Bohan from BMS Progress to the pod. How you doing, Vicki?

Vicky Bohan (00:26.87)
Yeah, I’m really good, thanks.

Mark Simpkins (00:28.641)
Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. I know we’re all very busy, particularly at this time of the year. I love it, obviously, when guests that I invite in are very keen to come and be part of this little project. So thank you for your time, first and foremost. I just want to just give a bit of context to why I invited you here today. So Vicky works at BMS Progress. Vicky is the curriculum manager, head of curriculum.

Vicky Bohan (00:55.778)
Yeah, Curriculum Manager.

Mark Simpkins (00:57.185)
Curriculum Manager at BMS Progress. the reason I invited Vicky here today is BMS is a client that I’ve worked with in the past and I was so super impressed with the way that Vicky and the curriculum team at BMS

engage employers in their curriculum and that really is the center of today’s pod. So before we kind of go into the depths of that Vicki, just tell our listeners who you are and a little bit of introduction to what you do at BMS.

Vicky Bohan (01:29.912)
Thank you. Yeah. And so as you said, yeah, I’m the curriculum manager at BMS Progress. And my role within the company is to create and design the apprenticeship programs that we deliver. And that’s from sales, management, coaching, and within those realms. And me and my colleagues work with employers to co-create the curriculum. So.

We’ve got our delivery model and then we work with the employees to further enhance and enrich that for the learners.

Mark Simpkins (02:01.991)
Yeah, and you do it ever so well. And that’s really the center of what I will talk about because, you know, I’ve worked with many clients as part of my quality consultant role. this is a real sticking point. It’s, know, when, when, when I kind of quiz them about their curriculum and the involvement of employers, and sometimes some of them do it really well, like yourselves. And some of them are like, wow, you know, we designed it. We haven’t really involved them particularly. And I think they’re missing a trick here. So, you know, today’s pod is all

about how you do that and how you do that really well because I know that you guys do. tell us a little bit about the vision, the curriculum kind of vision that initially, I mean you know you’ve been going for quite a few years and stuff now, you know, where was the drive? Where was the vision in like let’s get employers involved in our curriculum?

Vicky Bohan (02:53.516)
Yeah, and I think it’s important to start with the why in terms of why is it that we do it? And it’s for the learners, it’s for the learner experience. They’re on a journey of development, starting an apprenticeship, it can be daunting. So by bringing in the employer really early on and co-creating, designing a curriculum that’s really specific for their role is really important. So we start off with

Mark Simpkins (02:59.103)
Sure.

Vicky Bohan (03:23.446)
like I said before, engaging with the employers really early on. So when the account managers are going through the fine details of onboarding the apprentices, that’s where it starts. And we have our delivery model, like I said, and then the next process is understanding the business. So within curriculum, when we’re looking at designing it from a full cohort model.

We are understanding the peaks and troughs of the business, what’s happening when, and making sure that it’s relevant. And I think that’s our mission. It’s ensuring that the curriculum is relevant.

Mark Simpkins (04:05.301)
And this all happened pre-apprenticeship then, basically. It’s cultivating that strong employer relationship before you’ve even got to the point of actually enrolling any apprentices. It’s that, you know, and when you talk to employers at that really early stage, how do they react in terms of…

Vicky Bohan (04:09.473)
It was a…

Mark Simpkins (04:27.135)
you know, as part of our process, we like to involve you in this curriculum design. Do you find that they come back and say, well, I haven’t got time for that? Or are they really bought into it because you’re able to sell the fact that you can bespoke everything.

Vicky Bohan (04:39.734)
Yes, it can be a mixture of the two, especially if they’ve worked with other providers in the past. Those that have it, they’re excited. mean, all employers want to be involved in their apprenticeship journey. That’s why they choose choosing the apprenticeship route. And we do have different levels of like engagement. But by understanding the why.

Mark Simpkins (04:44.789)
Right, okay.

Vicky Bohan (05:02.262)
and that this makes a much better curriculum for the apprentices and inevitably supporting the apprentice with their next steps of that journey. Yeah, it just works well.

Mark Simpkins (05:15.027)
Yeah, that’s great. mean, in terms of who in a business that you speak, is that important? Because, you know, I often find that, you know, when we’re out…

clients and you ask about who the employer is, they have one person who’s set it up and then you’ve got another person that’s, you know, either the line manager and there’s different levels of people that need different levels of engagement, isn’t that right? So is that important? Is that important step to find out exactly who it is you need to sit down with in order to be able to design this curriculum for them?

Vicky Bohan (05:49.932)
I think it depends on the structure of the business in terms of who is the right person. Quite often it’s with senior leaders who are the advocates for the apprenticeship programme, bringing in the L &D department if there is one, because they understand what’s going on for the teams in general in terms of the development and the progression routes, so that really helps.

Mark Simpkins (05:52.961)
Hmm.

Vicky Bohan (06:16.022)
line managers as well. We quite often speak with stakeholders within the business and but we do often bring in the line managers at that point as well.

Mark Simpkins (06:26.199)
Yeah, so having a little bit from lots of different people, right, because they all need to be on board, they all need to fully understand. you know, is there a, you know, can you walk us through, I guess, the process from, you know, I guess, kind of first communication, let’s say with a new employer, for example, you know, what’s the process of, you know, right at the start in terms of getting in touch with them through to that beginning of the apprenticeship in terms of like curriculum design?

Vicky Bohan (06:46.711)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Simpkins (06:56.153)
going.

Vicky Bohan (06:57.526)
Yeah, so our account managers will go through a managers or an employers information session and that’s given them those insights into what the apprenticeship programme is all about and that tees up for that next stage and that’s where we give them information on how they can support the apprentice and how.

Mark Simpkins (07:04.576)
Okay.

Vicky Bohan (07:18.286)
that tripartite kind of commitment to the learning really helps to embed what it is we’re trying to achieve. And we have a curriculum collaboration document that gives them ideas and steers them in the idea of whether knowledge, skills and behaviours are best delivered by the employer. Now we know that we’re dealing with those knowledge, skills and behaviours and that’s what we need to map our off the job and on the job learning to. So giving them the ideas of what’s really specific within there. So if we take the new team

leader, they need to understand their role, responsibilities and accountability is. So what can the employer do to ensure that the apprentice really understands that and understands their place within the organisation? Now we can support with, you know, what the general roles of a team leader is using those knowledge, skills and behaviours.

But when that comes from the employer, it just carries so much more weight and it helps the learners to contextualise what that means for their business. So we give them those ideas really early on and it just starts that process of like, well.

we could do this or actually we’ve done this in the past on up with our own board and we could bring that into the apprenticeship. So by having those starting points and getting them involved really helps. So we’ve got a part one and part two. Part one is stakeholder. So looking at the bigger picture within the organisation and that’s where we come in in curriculum to really help to digest everything that they’ve got. Sometimes there’s loads, sometimes there’s not. And that’s when we explore those other opportunities.

that we can embed within the curriculum to really enhance and enrich it for the learner.

Mark Simpkins (08:56.979)
Yeah, there’s two bits of what you just said, which I just really want to pull on because I think they’re fundamental. Your statement there was…

the employer delivering and what they can deliver in terms of the KSBs. And I think this is fundamental because a lot of employers and perhaps a lot of ITPs may be out there as well. Just think that is solely the responsibility of you guys delivering the apprenticeship standard itself. And that idea of the fact of, hang on, you’re involved in this, you need to help and support with delivering those knowledge skills and

Vicky Bohan (09:10.296)
Yeah.

Vicky Bohan (09:34.915)
Yeah.

Mark Simpkins (09:35.241)
behavior, that’s almost groundbreaking because that, say it’s just, you know, in my head, as an employer head, you’re kind of like, that’s not my job. I’m bringing you in to do that and to engage with, go, hang on a minute, you’re involved in that. So how does, you know, what kind of ways do employers do that little bit? Because that’s where the differentiation comes, think.

Vicky Bohan (09:59.968)
it is. And I think just taking a step back for any training providers that are looking at bringing this kind of concept in, going through those knowledge, skills and behaviors and highlighting what specifically you feel would really help to embed the learning is like the starting point. If we take the cell as exact, there is a whole KSP on organisational knowledge. So who is better to deliver that than someone within the organisation.

Mark Simpkins (10:21.109)
Right.

Mark Simpkins (10:25.279)
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more, to be honest. couldn’t agree more. And the second bit of your statement there, which I think, you know, was really, really good, was all to do with, you know.

balancing the different needs of employers and the added value that could be brought in, right? Because yes, you have the apprenticeship standard, but actually in terms of the organisation, what other little nuggets and bits of within that business can you bring to this program to give it added value? And if you’ve got some examples of the type of thing that they do.

Vicky Bohan (10:42.84)
Mm-hmm.

Vicky Bohan (11:02.134)
Yeah, yeah, so I mean, I’ll forgive me, I’ll bounce around a few of the different apprenticeship programs that we deliver. But I think it helps to contextualise it to specific apprenticeships. So one of the first things that we’ll explore is who is available within your organisation, who’s also a sponsor of the apprenticeship programs and wants to be involved.

Mark Simpkins (11:08.959)
No worries, no worries.

Vicky Bohan (11:28.62)
and what are their areas of expertise. So if we take team leader project management, now our team leader apprentices might not have had that exposure before. So hearing from a guest speaker within the organisation on how they’ve dealt with that within their organisation, their processes, it just adds value. It opens up the learner’s network and then they’ve got someone to go to when they hit that point in their apprenticeship and we place them throughout. So…

sales exec, commercial and financial acumen, another sticky point that they might not have understood before. So understanding the costs of the business. Now we can go through that generically, but then when we get someone from the finance department to give them that bigger picture view and help them to

bring that into conversations that they have with their clients, it just creates a better conversation. And like I said, it’s that contextualisation. So bringing in guest speakers is one of our, I would say one of the ones that employers really buy into. And for the learner, it opens up their network. It gives them that contextualisation.

Mark Simpkins (12:38.08)
Yeah.

Vicky Bohan (12:40.726)
Other areas that we’ll look at, specifically when we have a HR stakeholder involved, if I understand in the training that they deliver internally, that’s another element to explore. So what training is already planned in for the apprentice? Making sure that our sequencing

for exercises, activities, follow the sequence of what they’re doing. And we know that there is a whole wrath of models and methodology is that organisations use. So understanding that language helps us to be able to adapt our activities as well. So understanding those elements and all of those counts towards the off the job hours. So by having these early conversations with the employer and mapping out the off the job training,

just makes life so much easier. It’s that commitment of the time that’s planned into the learning plan. So that was the HR and training models that are going into the programme already. And it’s just, again, alignment, making sure that what it is that we’re teaching them on the apprenticeship programme from us at BMS Progress and through our workshops and through our coaching sessions are then embedded in the workplace. So I would say that next piece,

that’s really important is to liaise with stakeholders and potentially bringing in the line managers at this point as well is looking at those opportunities for them to apply those knowledge skills and behaviours. So the starting points for that would be shadowing who within their organisation is doing really well and that is an experienced member that they can shadow. Then giving them the opportunity.

Mark Simpkins (14:16.246)
you

Vicky Bohan (14:24.14)
to practice those skills but still in that learning environment. Now we call that learning in the live environment. Classes off the job hours because it’s in a training environment. Now the idea behind that is that they are being observed, they are being given feedback and then they can take that on to then use within their role. So there’s some really key areas that I think work really well and what we encourage our employers to bite into.

Mark Simpkins (14:49.129)
Yeah, and I love it because you’ve got different employer engagement and involvement at different stages in here because we initially started talking about curriculum design.

Now what you’re talking about is involved on program and as part of delivery. And, you know, I love the fact that you guys look specifically at what training do you do internally and where can we swap that within the program? then who have you got in the business has particular skills that actually we could bring in as a guest speaker and that brings added value to that particular KSB or, you know, and it all helps with personal development and behavior and attitudes, right? In terms of, you know, raising their confidence and resilience and all of this kind of

Vicky Bohan (15:15.938)
Yeah.

Vicky Bohan (15:25.357)
Yeah.

Mark Simpkins (15:29.465)
and they feel really involved in that business. So yeah, I absolutely love it. So what’s key to all this Vicky is capture, okay, right? And evidence and you must have a system within VMS which is able to facilitate all of these little changes and things like that. So tell us about how you capture all of this great evidence of stuff that you’re doing.

Vicky Bohan (15:55.126)
Yeah, so we start off with our delivery model within a spreadsheet and it is our blanket kind of covers all of the knowledge, skills and behaviors. And then we move, we move all of that around. So we have our master version that we can show off said that this is our mapping of all of the exercises, workshops that are planned in. We then have the next kind of stage where we will move sequencing around, whether that be the

Mark Simpkins (16:04.033)
Cool curriculum, right?

Vicky Bohan (16:22.4)
negotiation for sales has moved towards the end or whether that account management is brought forward depending on the role. So we can show that evidence of the amendments that we do to the delivery model. Then there’s the language changes. So we’ll have, we’ve got our workshops, but then when we change the language, we have the version history to show that we are changing methodologies, models, where that’s come from.

and we always encourage our employers to share any resources that they have and bring that in. So we have all of those, we have our curriculum handover, so me and my team within the curriculum department, we ensure that we are documenting these discussions with the employer and the commitment so that then when we use our follow-up we’ll include all of the amendments that we have that we’ve made.

We then include the off the job learning commitments and we call it employer led training. And all of that then gets cascaded down to the line managers. So we have, we’ve created a toolkit for line managers. So in the past, we found that sometimes when we’re coordinating the curriculum with stakeholders, there was that missing link with what was being agreed in

L &D or with senior leaders and then to what was happening on the ground. So by having that curriculum hand over to the line managers really helps to embed and bring them on board. So we have an employer toolkit. Within that we have advice on the workshops that are taking place, what it is that the learners are being taught each of the stage from both us from BMS and internally so that they can support tracking that development.

And as you can imagine, anything else that a line manager needs to support their apprentices. We always say within BMS Progress that we are improving performance and progressing careers. And we can’t do that without the support of the line manager. That is paramount to what we’re doing. So by your support in the line managers to be line manager of apprentices really helps for the learner’s development.

Vicky Bohan (18:46.774)
So then all of that is cascaded onto our AppTem learning plan, which is then updated sequence. And within AppTem, there is a tip box for employer training. So for the learners in the learning plan, they can see what’s being delivered by BMS and what’s being delivered internally as well. So lots of different touch points, lots of recording, and it does take time. I’m not going to deny that.

Mark Simpkins (19:07.425)
Great.

Vicky Bohan (19:14.786)
But by having all of that there as a provider, we can showcase that and we’ve got it to hand and we’re not scrambling to pull everything together. then inevitably it’s there for the success of the learners. So recording all of the employer-led training, the learning, it’s there for any kind of audits or inspections.

Mark Simpkins (19:39.061)
leads me so nicely onto my next question because just listening to you rally through all of that and you said it yourself, that sounds like a lot of work. So let’s talk about your staff internally, right? Because you’ve got a curriculum team that obviously helps and supports to ensure all this happen, but you’ve got your development coaches, right, in BMS Progress.

Vicky Bohan (19:50.072)
Yeah.

Mark Simpkins (20:05.781)
How are they geared towards? it just is like, well, I’ve got all of this teacher learning and coaching and everything. I haven’t got time to do this, this, this, this, and this. So how do you prepare your staff to work effectively within this employer engagement model?

Vicky Bohan (20:21.774)
Yeah, and it’s important to say that the curriculum is never going to be static.

Mark Simpkins (20:25.357)
Yeah.

Vicky Bohan (20:26.55)
So the development coaches are on the ground making those amendments as they go, but they need to understand the starting points. So we have our curriculum handover for development coaches. So what we’ve learned in curriculum from the employers in terms of models, methodologies, their organisation, training that they want to be part of. And like I said, it’s not always part of those knowledge skills and behaviors. We also embed that personal development curriculum.

for the apprentices. it’s understanding the development coaches kind of into the world that we’ve experienced with the employer and helping them to understand the employers why. So when we’ve done our handover before the learner even has day one of learning, our development coaches will carry out an individual learning plan review with the apprentices and within that it’s not only getting to know their apprentices

but it’s getting to know their starting points, use the skills radar that’s part of the initial assessment process. But the line manager is part of that process as well. So if they haven’t been involved at the design and co-creation of the curriculum at the earlier stages, this is where their input becomes really important. So based on the individual needs of the learner.

They’ll then drill down into what can further enhance the curriculum and develop that person, whether that be additional support.

We have learners with additional learning needs as well, which is where the employer really supports for that embedding of learners and those opportunities. But also the line managers are experienced in their area as well. So then we bring in the coaching and development from their side, post workshop one-to-ones as well. So that after a learner has been on a workshop, they’re relaying back to the line manager what they’ve learned and the line managers and supporting them to apply that.

Vicky Bohan (22:21.416)
within their role as well. So I think in terms of the development coach we have their buy-in because it is setting up the learner for success. We’ve got the commitment from the employer, commitment from the line manager and the apprentice and in terms of the development coach’s role you’re right it is a difficult role. They are coaching and developing continually with their apprentice and that in itself

is a huge role. So to then add in the management of the employer-led training adds in that. But they see for themselves that the learners are more engaged, they progress, they’re going through the apprenticeship curriculum on time and it’s just supporting the overall development of the apprentice.

Mark Simpkins (23:09.257)
Yeah, great. And so, Kenny, you know, have you got like a particular, I guess, success story where, you know, an employer involvement significantly improved, you know, an apprenticeship program?

Vicky Bohan (23:25.142)
Yeah, and I think there’s loads of examples that I can give. But I think taking it back to why it is that we’re doing this and employer training doesn’t have to be rocket science. We’re not saying that, you know, the employees that we work with need to have a huge L &D budget and, you know, have their own training program that runs alongside the apprenticeship. So I’ll give you an example where we just took things back to basics and we had an employer

The beginning was like, I’m not really sure how we can, what we can bring because, you know, we don’t have a huge team. So when we explored experts within the business, it was okay, actually we can expose our learners.

to the different departments so they understand what within the organisation feeds into their role and how their role feeds into the wider organisation and we do this right across all of our apprenticeship programmes, really encourage that exposure. Not only develops the learner’s personal development but also supports the knowledge skills and behaviours. Now as a result of that, that then opened up to

the wider organisation, it was working so well with the apprentices that it’s now being used as a model for other members within the organisation. It does indeed. then, so we’re not just developing our apprentices then, we’re supporting the wider organisation. And I think that’s key, isn’t it? We’re developing them.

Mark Simpkins (24:48.703)
It goes both ways, right?

Mark Simpkins (24:55.221)
Hmm.

Vicky Bohan (25:00.594)
on a personal development curriculum. We’re developing them for the knowledge, skills and behaviours, but we’re also supporting the organisation with their solutions for upskilling their workforce.

Mark Simpkins (25:12.031)
Yeah, yeah, it’s fantastic. I love the model. I do. And you’ve given us so many little tips and hints and bits and bobs there. I just want to just, as we go to a close, Vicky, out of everything that you’ve kind of said, if you had, you know, kind of three key things that you could recommend that listeners take away in order to, you know, kind of implement what you’re talking about here, what would those kind of three key things be?

Vicky Bohan (25:40.108)
know I’ve banged on about it throughout this podcast today but it’s those early conversations. Getting in there early, helping the employers to understand the why of why we’re asking them to be involved but also us understanding their why for an apprenticeship. So getting in there early, planning in and contextualising.

Mark Simpkins (25:41.437)
Yeah.

Mark Simpkins (25:45.559)
Mmm.

Vicky Bohan (26:04.46)
that on and off the job learning would be my second one, ensuring that the apprentices have got those opportunities to embed that learning and whether that be, like I said before, planning in the shadowing and then learning the line of environment and then their own exercises or whether that’s the other methods that I talked about, but planning those in, we need to plan it in prior to day one of learning to map out the off the job learning. yeah.

getting those ideas and giving them support and advice.

Vicky Bohan (26:40.302)
trying to think of my third one. just, I think I’ve probably given about 10 just in those two, but yeah, that early intervention, understanding the why from both sides and all just being there, keeping the learner at the heart of what it is that you’re doing. And that really helps to contextualise it and keeping it simple.

Mark Simpkins (26:41.911)
You gave us… You have, yeah.

Vicky Bohan (27:00.14)
That would be my third one. Keep it simple. It doesn’t have to be training modules. It’s just that exposure for the learner to apply those knowledge, skills and behaviours and you’ll see the impact. You really will.

Mark Simpkins (27:00.246)
Yeah.

Mark Simpkins (27:11.605)
Yeah, and I think that’s really key is that nothing that you’re doing here really is rocket science, right? It’s just that onward communication, that onward relationship with the employer, making sure you’ve got a set process for capturing what it is that you’re doing, right? And yeah, and it’s why it works so well for you guys. Look, Vicky, I’m going to bring that to a close there. I think that is you’ve given us so many hints and tips and I’m so grateful for you to come on and share some of it.

And I think if anybody else who’s listening has any questions or anything for you, Vicky, where could they get hold of you if they needed to?

Vicky Bohan (27:50.502)
So you can email me at vickiB at bmsprogress.com or my LinkedIn, which is Vicki Gohan.

Mark Simpkins (27:57.205)
Yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much, Vicky. So I’m going to say that that’s a wrap for today’s edition of FE Gold. I’m sure you listeners will have gained some valuable tips and inspiration from Vicky and what they do there at BMS. I hope that you’ve enjoyed the show and if you have,

By all means, please tell your connections, your friends, your colleagues, and that will just help the show grow. And yeah, that’s been Effie Gold with me, your host, Mark Simpkins, and Vicky. Thanks again, Vicky. Thanks for stopping by.

Vicky Bohan (28:29.518)
Thank you.