Employer Apprenticeship Providers with Amy Crabb

Mark Simpkins (00:02.897)
Hello and welcome to another episode of FE Gold, your source for real talk and real solutions in the world of further education. And I’m here, I’m your host, I’m Mark Simpkins, here to bring you with the help of my guests insights that will take your provision to the next level. And today I’m delighted to welcome Amy Crabb.

Hi, Amy. Amy’s a learning and development director at Circo Holdings, an employer provider of apprenticeships. How are you, Amy? You well?

Amy Crabb (00:35.405)
I’m good, thank you, how are you?

Mark Simpkins (00:37.809)
I’m very well, thank you, very well. And thank you for joining us today. A little bit about kind of Circo Holdings. They are a client of mine as a quality consultant, but I’ll let Amy do the talking on this bit. So Amy, just can you introduce what Circo Holdings are, a little bit about your role and I think first and foremost, what does it mean to be an employer provider?

Amy Crabb (01:00.717)
Yeah, of course. So for those of you that don’t know anything about Serco, we are a company and we essentially partner with governments to deliver public services. And that is across the globe. So we have divisions in the UK, Europe, Middle East, North America and Asia specific. And we run across many different operations. So we really span across defense, space, healthcare, justice and immigration, transport and citizen services. So.

We really go from running kind of environmental sites all the way to running kind of prisons and facilities management in hospital as well. So really, really varied course on that. We have about 50 ,000 employees globally, but 30 ,000 of those sit within the UK and Europe. So a really big proportion of that, we’re lucky to service within the UK. So a little bit about my role. So I’ve been at Serco now for two years.

as learning and development director. And my team really look after all learning and development interventions that we do. So that is from apprenticeships all the way to e -learning design, learning management system, admin, and any kind of face -to -face delivery that we do also. So that’s your question on what is it like to be an employer? I think it’s an amazing opportunity. So a big thing that I found is that,

Mark Simpkins (02:12.721)
Mm.

Amy Crabb (02:23.533)
previously prior to Serco, I knew a lot about apprenticeships, but actually through different training and independent training providers. So everywhere I’ve worked before, we delivered apprenticeships, but through training providers. So coming here and seeing that we’re an employer provider, first of all, didn’t really understood what that really meant, but actually is a brilliant opportunity for Serco employees. And I think the reasons for that and the benefits of being an employer provider is,

Mark Simpkins (02:31.057)
Sure.

Amy Crabb (02:51.469)
At Serco, really our people are the most important thing. We know that without great people, we’re doing great things that we’ll never be able to achieve that strategy that we really want to get to in our long -term goals. And being a provider really helps us to grow and really hone in on specific skills that we are looking for and be able to tailor our training programs for our people. So super, super lucky to have this role and be able to work with such amazing colleagues across the globe.

Mark Simpkins (03:19.345)
Yeah, absolutely. I was going to kind of put on that. It’s because I mean, ultimately as an employer familiar with your own business needs, how do you ensure that the apprenticeship curriculum and training are precisely tailored to developing the right skills and competencies for the business?

Amy Crabb (03:39.373)
I think the biggest thing, and that’s one thing that I know I’ve talked about and been advantaged about, I think that’s probably the biggest advantage of being an employer provider, that really it’s a close cohort because it’s almost so co -employees only, but then equally it’s an open one because we’ve got people, as I talked about before, there’s so many different sectors, you might not ever get the chance to meet another colleague from another sector, so this is a way that they can all come together and network together.

Mark Simpkins (03:47.601)
Hmm.

Amy Crabb (04:05.613)
But it is a way that we can have a look at the curriculum and say, actually, what is Serco trying to achieve over the next three to five years? Where are we seeing those skill gaps? And then where can we really pull on that to highlight it within the curriculum and make sure that we’re delivering the right training for our people? So really, it is about talking to the business. So we do a lot of getting feedback from the business. How are they finding the learning? Where are they seeing the gaps at the moment?

actually what are they finding hard? Because when you think about anything to do with learning and development, we’re just here really to help them do the things that they are finding hard. So what are they finding difficult and how can we help them through the apprenticeship programme to overcome that and grow the skills in that area?

Mark Simpkins (04:47.249)
Yeah, and I could kind of see that and that close relationship that you must have obviously within the business. But what’s, you know, I guess kind of interesting is how obviously Serco have to manage both running their core business operations as well as their learning and development side. So, you know, tell us about some of the biggest challenges Serco are facing balancing the two priorities.

Amy Crabb (05:14.701)
Yeah, I think the biggest thing that we find and the biggest thing that I found personally when kind of looking at this for the first thing is as an employer provider, it’s not really about making a profit and getting those numbers on it. It’s about really doing the right thing by the learners. So we’re always going to have those overheads by being an employer provider and run apprenticeships in -house. We are so, so lucky to have such a supportive and brought in kind of executive leadership team.

Mark Simpkins (05:27.217)
Hehe.

Amy Crabb (05:41.261)
So our CEO, Anthony, is really passionate about people and a real advocate of apprenticeship. So he really wants everyone to be able to have an opportunity to gain a qualification, to have the opportunity for a next step, and really have that lifelong career with Circo. So I think that would be a challenge without that executive buy -in that we do have within. One of the biggest things that we found, which is going to sound really simple, but it’s going to be a big barrier for everyone, was time.

So really everyone is busy in whatever role they have got, but it was really how do we make sure that people have the time to complete their programme and understand more about apprenticeships. But again, that’s where I think we have a real benefit as an employer provider. And an example being we deliver the team leader supervisor level three standard. And we found from feedback from our colleagues on the business that actually the way that we were running the workshops didn’t really work. We operate in a lot of

Mark Simpkins (06:30.801)
Mm -hmm.

Amy Crabb (06:39.277)
or as mentioned on environmental sites, naturally people just aren’t sat in front of the computer all day, every day. So we had a look at actually is our delivery the best thing? Do we need to run more kind of webinars? Do we need to be a bit more agile in our approach? And so we can quite quickly shift it up to meet the business needs really, which you wouldn’t be able to do with the programme. So it’s how we adapt it that way. So I think that has been a really big challenge for us.

Equally, one thing is just business understanding as a whole. So I think it’s just how they understand how the perception is of apprenticeships and how we can get them to understand what it means in real life, what it can really bring to their department and business area and how they can utilise it to grow skills, but help their succession plans, but really see it as something of value. And that really is an education and communication bit that we’ve been working on really hard over the last kind of 12 to 18 months.

but really seeing the outcomes of that now in a really positive way.

Mark Simpkins (07:41.937)
Yeah, that’s excellent. I mean, you touched on it a little bit there and, you know, how does the learner experience and sense of engagement differ for apprentices being trained, you know, within their employer’s organisation versus what you might get an external training provider?

Amy Crabb (08:03.053)
I think the one thing that’s great is that everyone they’ve touched base with as part of their program is a CIRCUM employee. So we’re all in the same organization, working towards the same goals. We understand the business, we understand the pressures they’re up against, what they’ve achieved, what kind of environment that they’re working in. So that really supports, and we try and keep that open communication as well between kind of the development coaches and the learners and what we do. So I think that really helps as well.

One thing is just making sure that we get that feedback constantly. So I think it supports to have someone that is their coach, whoever it is, that actually they can teams us at any point. They can pick up the phone, we can go to their site. We’re almost in the business with them. So that really, really helps to not see us as almost a separate kind of company on the side. We’re part of it with helping them along the way.

Mark Simpkins (08:54.321)
Yeah.

Yeah, I totally get that. And I guess I want to touch now upon, I guess, my kind of field in terms of quality assurance and kind of meeting compliance regulations. That kind of thing is obviously crucial in any apprenticeship provider, whether it be the employer or an independent. How has Serco approached building robust quality insurance and improvement processes? And

How do you ensure that your provision meets the requirements, obviously, of an apprenticeship as both an employer and a training provider?

Amy Crabb (09:35.021)
Yeah, so it’s an interesting one because it’s something I had to learn all about when I first started. But I think the biggest one is get the right kind of structure in place. So I’m really fortunate that I’ve got a great team around me and I have got some posts in that specifically look at this kind of area. So I’ve got a funding manager, Paul, and then an excellence manager, Mary, who really keep us tight on what it should look like. I think the biggest thing is making sure

Mark Simpkins (09:39.857)
Hahaha!

Amy Crabb (10:04.909)
that we’re always putting the learner first. Because I think as long as you put the learner and the apprentice first, you can’t really go wrong. But equally being transparent about performance. So if we’re not doing something great, we won’t try and hide that away. We’ll face into it and think, actually, you can’t be great at everything all the time. What is it that we can do to improve it? And then what are the steps that we need to put in place as well? So we regularly do our self -assessment. We do a position statement.

every quarter and share this. And then we also do quarterly program reviews as well to say, actually, what are the learners telling us? What’s the data telling us? How do we feel about it? How can we really build on it and grow? And it’s about having that mindset of constantly evolving. We want to always make sure that we’re trying to really improve our service. Another thing that I think has really helped is we looked at our kind of governance over our program.

Mark Simpkins (10:50.161)
Yeah.

Amy Crabb (11:00.781)
which you’ll know all about, being one of our governors, but we did reflect about, it’s been about 12 months ago now at our governance board, because it was all internal. So we had a look at that to say, actually, are we getting the most out of this? And what we were missing really was that kind of critical friend and someone with that outside experience that could really advise us and challenge us. So we looked at kind of our governors, you kindly came on as one of our governors, and then we’ve got Gemma.

as well who’s CEO of GLP Training and you’ve been really brilliant at really making us look in the mirror, what are you doing here, what’s the data, what is it saying and also what could we do differently. So having that external challenge has been a bit of a game changer for us and really reminding us that you do need to constantly evolve, you always, always can deliver a better service.

Mark Simpkins (11:52.593)
Well, absolutely pleased to be of service. No, it’s, I joke about that. It’s a great little setup and stuff we, you know, and the governance board meetings that we meet are always full of challenge, full of discussion, and that’s exactly what it’s there to do right. So, no, no, it’s great. It’s the employer provider, it’s kind of like, it’s a unique position that aligns apprenticeship training with internal career progression.

Amy Crabb (11:56.013)
Thank you.

Mark Simpkins (12:21.649)
and kind of workforce planning, right? So, you know, how does Serco leverage apprenticeships for employees skills, development, retention, and, you know, ultimately succession planning?

Amy Crabb (12:33.837)
So I think it forms a huge part of it. So we work with our people team quite heavily, but then equally the operational teams as well, as mentioned before, just so they have that understanding of apprenticeships. We also look as well at where are the pockets where we might have some skill gaps or maybe some skill fade, and how can we utilise apprenticeships really to fill those gaps. Equally, we use it, as mentioned, as part of successions and when we’ve got top talent.

We might look at actually is more of a higher management apprenticeship applicable for them or another one. But equally, obviously, apprenticeships are for everyone. So really, it’s for anyone that is looking to develop in a new skill. So they’re really embedded in our strategy, to be honest, on how can we utilise them. I mean, my view is with apprenticeships is they are the best training programme because you have to embed those skills along the way.

and it really makes you put them into practice and showcase them as you go. So we really do advocate that people go on them. And we’re quite proud to have had so many of our workforce on apprenticeships today. We see a lot of progression as well post our apprenticeship programmes. So we are really proud that about 67 % of our apprentices that complete go on to do a lateral move or promotion within Serco.

So really just showing actually that that skills really have embedded and supported them in their own growth.

Mark Simpkins (13:59.473)
Yeah, that’s fantastic. It’s always great to hear and that’s the purpose why they’re there. Absolutely, right? So at the every episode that I do, I’ll always ask my guests, you know, what their top three, I guess, kind of golden nuggets, what are the type of things, but if you were starting right in the beginning and stuff again, what would you be saying to yourself to say, look, you know, these are the kind of top things I take away if I, if I’m an employer provider. So, you know, what would yours be?

Amy Crabb (14:03.533)
Yeah, that’s it.

Amy Crabb (14:28.845)
So I think, interesting question, I think the first one, and I know I’ve talked about it a little bit earlier, is just making sure that you’ve got that senior leadership buy -in and understanding. So as mentioned, we’re really lucky at Serco that our executive team are so bought in on learning and development and apprenticeships, but it’s just making sure that really your leadership team and your key stakeholders are really bought into what you’re trying to do and why, because I think without that, it would be really difficult to be able to run.

The second one is to, I suppose, keep it simple. So when I first came over and started understanding everything about employer provider, it blew my mind a little bit. But really, it’s how do you keep it simple and just make sure that you’re not over -complicating it. If you’re doing the right thing for the learner, that is at the heart of everything you do. I think there’s a lot of legislation, funding rules, everything like that, that you need to get your head around.

Mark Simpkins (15:03.537)
Hehehe

Amy Crabb (15:24.717)
but just make sure that you are doing the right thing for learners. So try not to get too caught up in it. And off the back of that, whether it’s part of it or a third one, just use the people around you. So people are there to help. We have regular meetings with our ESFA funding manager. We’ve also got you and as part of the governance board, just use the people around you because people want to help and no questions are silly ones. So just make sure that you are utilising your support network.

Mark Simpkins (15:52.049)
Great advice. Yeah, absolutely couldn’t agree with you more. So yeah, absolutely important just to take those those little nuggets away. So that’s all we’ve got time for today. Amy, thank you so much for joining me today. It’s always lovely having conversations with people within the industry, particularly in quite unique kind of situations just like yourselves. And, you know, I think that’s great advice for anybody out there listening. So thank you very much.

Amy Crabb (16:20.749)
Yeah, thank you for having me.

Mark Simpkins (16:22.673)
Great, so that’s a wrap on this edition of FB Gold. I hope you gained some valuable tips and inspiration from Amy and Serko. So I hope you enjoy the show. If you have, tell your connections, tell your friends, tell your colleagues, and that’s how it will help this grow. So that’s been another episode. Thanks from me, your host, Mark Simpkins, and from Amy.

Amy Crabb (16:47.853)
Thank you.

Mark Simpkins (16:48.753)
Okay, and thanks for listening.