The ever-changing role of the IQA with Ying Kit Lim

Mark Simpkins (00:02.193)
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of FE Gold, your source for real talk and real solutions in the world of further education. And I’m your host, Mark Simpkins, and I’m here along with my guests to bring insights that will take your provision to the next level. Now today here on FE Gold, we welcome Ying Kit Lim. Ying is teaching and learning manager.

at EEV Training and also is a freelance education advisor on the side. Welcome, Ying. How are you today?

Ying Kit Lim (00:35.856)
Thank you for inviting Mark and very well thank

Mark Simpkins (00:38.725)
Good, it’s lovely to see you and just for our viewers who are watching on video, we are recording this in the summer holidays and therefore we may get some interruptions as we go through this pod, might we, Ying?

Ying Kit Lim (00:54.766)
Yeah, that’s right. Hopefully, hopefully they’ll be fine.

Mark Simpkins (00:57.089)
Yeah, yeah, hopefully they won’t be too disruptive. So Ying, before we kind of go on and talk a little bit about what we’re going to do, the topic for today, tell us a little bit about you and the different roles that you

Ying Kit Lim (01:12.124)
All right, so a bit about me. I’ve been with the further education sector over the past 12 years, starting as an assessor and then I progressed with a tutor and then quality and IQA, developing curriculum. And now I’m managing a team of tutors, curriculum, and also quality and leading to officer inspection this year with the providers and also supporting other

training providers in developing the quality assurance process, carrying out sampling. And not only within the training provider sector, I’ve also carried out several endpoint assessment with several endpoint assessment organizations as well myself as an EPA assessor and an IQA for an

Mark Simpkins (01:59.567)
Yeah, lots of diverse hats there mate, aren’t you really? be honest. This is the… It does, of course it does, of course it does. So that’s great. And what we’re here to talk about today is the ever, I call it the ever -changing role of the IQA.

Ying Kit Lim (02:04.058)
Yeah, yeah, it keeps me running, you

Mark Simpkins (02:19.385)
because it’s one of those roles I find in the clients that I go out to that actually when I look at the different job titles and different roles and things that are in further education, particularly in the apprenticeship space, is that it has had to adapt and change over the years. And I actually even know that there are some providers out there that no longer have almost an IQA so much anymore.

And I think what we’re here to talk about today is the challenges and what’s changed and how there’s been a big shift in terms of this particular role, which in my opinion is still pinnacle and is still absolutely valid and should be in training provision today. But it’s an interesting topic. And obviously this is something that you’re doing also on a day -to -day basis. So let’s start, I guess.

as to what you tell me a little bit about what you’ve seen in terms of the biggest kind of what are the biggest shifts from you know what an IQA used to be a number of years ago to where we are today.

Ying Kit Lim (03:27.004)
So back in let’s just say let’s just rewind back before the apprenticeship standard was developed back in between especially up to 2015 -2016 so a good many many years ago the role of Nike has changed since the role the new standards were released for the apprenticeships Previously back in the if you remember the framework days some provider call it or the QCF days They are very

strict and also stringent in terms of carrying out quality assurance practices in terms of IQA, where you have the vertical sampling, horizontal sampling, and you’ve got formative sampling and summative sampling along those lines. And some IQAs also carries out the, what we’ve known back then is the observation of teaching and learning and assessment. So today, what we’ve seen changes here is as part of the new apprenticeship standard where we were

it also encompass end -point assessment, the role of IQA has changed significantly. Although, as we mentioned, some providers doesn’t really need or doesn’t really have an IQA in place. However, from experience up to today, delivering standards, it is important that an IQA is still in place to be the gatekeeper prior to the end -point assessment and to be able to support coaches or tutors.

in training provider, in developing the portfolios, ensure the assessment criteria, the skills, knowledge and behaviours are met prior to gateway.

Mark Simpkins (05:03.151)
Yeah, it’s worth mentioning there, isn’t it? So you talk about the frameworks, frameworks world when there was, I guess, accredited qualification that had awarding organizations that required there to be IQA checks, balances, all the way up to the point where, you know, that person gets certified and qualified and there needed to be that. So it was almost like an awarding organization.

level of assurance, of quality assurance internally that then get passed on to an external one. And we remember the days of direct claim status and all of that kind of stuff. And then when we move from frameworks to standards, we now have a bunch of standards out there that no longer have accredited qualifications assigned to them. Therefore, technically, a learner could go through their entire learner journey.

Ying Kit Lim (05:28.08)
Mm -hmm.

Ying Kit Lim (05:38.361)
Yes.

Mark Simpkins (05:57.175)
into then EPA without any level of quality assurance whatsoever.

Ying Kit Lim (06:03.608)
Absolutely. again, if you look from the end point assessment side is that the training provider no longer assess the portfolios because again, as you mentioned, the days of the direct claim status are all over. So it’s now moving on to the end point assessment organizations where they have independent assessors that will be assessing the quality and also will be the one to provide the final grade towards the end point assessment itself. So in a sense that training provider no longer assess

So we have the coach that supports the development of the apprentice. We have the IQA that will be the gatekeeper to make sure assessment feedback is available, to make sure support is in place, and to make sure the curriculum and the sequencing of the learning journey are as accurate and as fluid as possible to be able to adapt and support a variety of different types of employers out there as well.

Mark Simpkins (07:00.485)
Yeah, so you’re now kind of homing in on some things I just want to focus on because I’ve literally just banned IQAs in what I just said and kind of said that actually, technically, from an external perspective, from an awarded organization or EPAO perspective, actually, there is no role there as the IQA. Now, now we know is that actually there is still an awful

that an internal quality assurer or whatever it is you want to call in your business actually is fundamentally still there to do in relation to the achievement at end point assessment, but also from Ostead’s kind of perspective, right? So before we kind of go onto those, know, what do you believe are still the core aspects of the IQA role, are fundamentally still the same despite all of this change that we’ve had over the years?

Ying Kit Lim (07:38.97)
Absolutely.

Ying Kit Lim (07:51.812)
Okay, so let’s begin talking about different types of training providers out there. Some training providers will have IQAs that solely focus on the qualification or the portfolio itself. Some training providers will want to encompass the further quality assurance aspects, including lesson visits today or even work scrutiny in this case, or incorporating learner voice.

So I feel those are still remain part as the main ongoing co -responsibilities of an IQA to be able to adapt, being evaluative and able to critically analyze the quality of work produced from the apprentices themselves. So in terms of the main co -responsibilities, I feel that the IQA should also continuously drive improvement for the division.

So we look at quality of teaching and learning. We look at the offset framework. We look at personal development. We look at behaviors and attitudes. So again, these are still part of the core responsibilities as part of the Nike Way today.

Mark Simpkins (09:05.221)
Yeah, absolutely. that, you know, that there are lots of arms are still there because fundamentally still, like you said about the work scrutiny side of things is that yeah, absolutely. Their role is to dip in and to check the quality of how that delivery is happening in and also what kind of standard of work the learner is producing. And then there’s that element of challenge that IQA still brings, right, in terms of, you know,

Can the learner be stretching challenge to reach those higher grades? And quite often as a, know, assessor, tutor, trainer, whatever we want to call them these days, you know, there’s, there’s, have a caseload of learners and very much they’re kind of moulders to be able to, get them to achieve, right? But obviously from an IQA and from a training provider perspective, we want to push

to reach and be the best they ultimately can be. And that’s where the IQA can drop in and give hints and development and everything that they can to be able to allow that learner to reach what they can do, right? So there is that fundamental role that the IQA does. I also think you kind of touched upon there is personal development. And a huge part of the education inspection framework is about

CPD and professional development of the tutors. And it’s the IQA’s responsibility role to identify where the gaps may be in that kind of delivery team. And then to either deliver and provide your internal training or suggest some external training that they can go on and do, right? So that’s another huge part of the EIF that IQAs are involved in. You mentioned, so we talked quite a lot, I think about

Ying Kit Lim (10:41.308)
Absolutely.

Mark Simpkins (10:49.777)
Apprenticeships. Now, obviously there are training providers now that deliver lots of different funding contracts, right? We’ve got the adult education budget, the short courses, we’ve got boot camps that are very much, you know, very growing, you know, in lots of different sectors and lots of different training providers that I work with. And ultimately, those courses are a lot shorter in terms of, you know, apprenticeships, they’re on for 12, 18 plus months, right?

but we’ve got short courses where people are only on for, you know, some of them for eight, 12 weeks. Where’s the IQA involved in that bit, Ying?

Ying Kit Lim (11:28.988)
So, yes, so where the IQ involves is to look at the cohort and the schedule and to be able to pinpoint, okay, interim carrying by carrying out interim sample. So the core responsibilities, as we mentioned earlier on, are still there. So still carrying out the typical interim and formative sampling throughout the learner journey. So for example, boot camps, you know, is between 12 to 16 weeks duration.

A, B, depends on the qualification and the guided learning hours. could be between 20, it could be as low as even seven hours or 10 hours to 500 hours, depending on the duration of the program and the qualification. So the role of Nike way will need, he or she will need to sit down and plan effectively when to schedule in the interim and also the summative sampling in this case to be able to pick up on

learners progress and to be able to feedback on or towards to the tutor to the coaches as well all the coaches in this case and identify action plans to minimize you know out of funders for example. So again IQA2 plays a significant role here to ensure that the learners are on track to ensure that especially the different types of funded

funded divisions, I’d say like A, B as mentioned, FCFJ, study programs, bootcamps. So the IQ was to play a big part in ensuring the learners progress, they’re progressing towards the other program, ensuring the tutors are providing substantial feedback or comprehensive feedback around the personal behaviors, providing career advice and guidance towards the different divisions here. So again, in a nutshell,

IQA plays a crucial role across hundreds of programs and sectors. As we mentioned earlier on, some providers are not assessing why there is a need for an IQA. It is still important to have someone there to be policing around it.

Mark Simpkins (13:30.673)
Yeah.

Mark Simpkins (13:35.055)
Yeah, and I actually want to delve into that a little bit more because what’s interesting is that as we’ve moved from frameworks to standards, we’re now obviously the standards are focused on job roles and IQAs are expected to be and you know, I’ll take this from a tutor assessor trainer perspective, it? There’s an expectation that IQAs are almost like that level above in terms of knowledge and guidance and experience and things like that. you know, as that’s changed IQAs

need to be, you know, they’re almost need to be the master of so many different sectors and standards, right. But it’s almost kind of twofold. You kind of I know that there are some businesses that have sector IQAs that are from that particular sector, either they’re, you know, from IT or digital or creative or whatever it may be. But there’s also room

IQAs who aren’t actually necessarily set to specific because there are so many elements of the learner journey that you don’t need to be, you know, I don’t need to be a software development IQA in order to be able to assess the quality of what’s happening. So I guess where I’m here sort of asking the question here is how important is it to have people in the business that can undo both roles?

Ying Kit Lim (14:57.276)
Okay, so I think that’s very good point out there. Interestingly, Ofstate would like to see CPDs, as you mentioned CPDs throughout. So it’s a case of how the IQAs or the relevant delivery members start with a thirds of cultures keep up to date with the occupational experience. So again, the IQA should proactively…

carrying out research on this are along the job role as well and identify suitable key CPD topics to be able to develop and keep the tutors and coaches CPD up to date. Now, I think in terms of the IQA role itself, okay, what we expect in IQA is we need to be really, really pragmatic, adaptive, and again, as we discussed here, have a thorough background of the Offset EIF framework.

and ideally someone who enjoys spreadsheets. To be able to measure progress, juggle multiple pathways or standards or programs, and to be able to present data to the higher management in this case.

Mark Simpkins (15:54.827)
Haha yeah! Juggle.

Mark Simpkins (16:09.851)
And I think the one thing we’ve missed here is, and it’s a huge part of the IEF and Ostead’s regulations is curriculum. Now you will, or, know, there are dependent on the size of the business. You may have training providers that have curriculum developers, people who create the content that then get kind of almost

pushed out, whether it be via e -learning or lesson plans or resources and all that kind of thing. And ultimately, you need somebody who has that sector expertise to say, do you know what? That is up to date. That is relevant. That is in the sequence in the right place and so on and so forth. So it’s really key that you have that person in order to be able to check off the contents right as well, isn’t it? Really. you

Ying Kit Lim (16:58.288)
That’s right. Yes.

Mark Simpkins (16:58.841)
There’s the curriculum side of things as well. So actually there is lots of hats that that’s you know, an IQA needs needs to have my last kind of question on this. Ying is about EPA. And we’ve talked a little bit about being the gatekeepers to EPA. And I just want to touch upon the importance of mock EPA because again, I know that there are training providers that do these differently.

What in your experience and as an EPA yourself, how effectively can IQAs influence how well prepared learners are for end point assessment?

Ying Kit Lim (17:40.764)
Absolutely. So if we look at this from a learner journey perspective, in a typical apprenticeship learning on learning on program learning phase, so the apprentice will spend a minimum of 12 months, even more with the tutor or coach. In this sense, they have already built the rapport together. So the coach and the apprentice have already got the rapport in place over, let’s just say, the past 12 to 14 months prior.

to the endpoint assessment. So now by carrying out the mock EPA professional discussion, Q &A or interviews, it allows the apprentice to be able to build the confidence and speaking to someone that they haven’t met in this case. So for example, I jump into in my recent sites supporting training providers, I carry out

EPA discussions with the apprentice directly. And I always explained to them, I look, you’ve met with your coach over the past 12 to 14 months. So in a sense, you know your coach, they know you. As a, as the IQA in this case, they have may not met or even speak to the apprentice directly until the portfolio has been requested sample. So the IQA get, familiarized with the apprentice’s workplace, the role itself. And again, to be able to carry out this

discussion teams effectively. And again, in honesty, this has shown a significant improvement where there are more and more learners that are, and also training providers, they have higher EPA pass rates by carrying out this little activity, an hour or two hours, schedule in with the apprentice directly and carry out a mock EPAs. So it has played a significant improvement over time.

Mark Simpkins (19:33.999)
It’s all about preparation, isn’t it? Right. Cause you know, if you know the assessment plan right from the word go, you know what the apprentices are going to have when they move into mock into sorry, into EPA. And can we set up the scenario so that they are practicing that kind of environment before then going into the real thing, right? That’s what you’re trying to do. And I’ve seen firsthand experience, those providers that have that kind

Ying Kit Lim (19:36.803)
Absolutely.

Mark Simpkins (20:03.665)
process in place, that valuable feedback that can then go back to the apprentice and say, right, you are ready for EPA. This is kind of where you are at right now, grade wise, in our opinion. If you were just to do X, Y and Z, that could then take your grade from pass up to distinction, right, or merit or whatever it is that they can do. it’s a vital part of that process.

Ying Kit Lim (20:26.256)
That’s right, yes.

Mark Simpkins (20:32.631)
in order to be able to hopefully again get those best achievement rates. It’s simple as that really. So that’s great. I mean, I think we’ve of thoroughly explored, know, the, mean, one big thing that you’ve dropped in at some point that we haven’t talked about, and that would probably be a different or another podcast in itself is the observations of teachers and learning, right? And, you know, that can form a big part of the IQA role.

Ying Kit Lim (20:38.713)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Mark Simpkins (21:02.737)
But, know, we, in terms of time, we haven’t got lots of time in order to discuss that. And that would have to be a future podcast, I’m afraid, because that’s, that’s a great, I love talking about observations and teaching and learning, because there are so many different diverse ways that people deliver. And, you know, it’s a very passionate topic of mine. So let’s kind of shake this up and bring this to a close, because I know that we’ve kind of been here, there and everywhere a little bit. you know, IQA role, I think we agree that it’s fundamental.

Ying Kit Lim (21:10.717)
That’s fine.

Mark Simpkins (21:30.341)
You know, I think, you what I’d like to ask you then is if you were, you know, you’re a manager of a training provider, perhaps you’re just starting up and you need to go, right. I know that there is a role here. I just, you know, as an IQA, I just need a bit of help as to, know, what is it that that IQA will do? So tell me, you know, in a nutshell, what, are the things that IQA should be doing out there in, in our training providers?

Ying Kit Lim (21:31.43)
Yep, absolutely.

Ying Kit Lim (21:55.452)
Sure. think as a Nike way, what I look for is the evaluative skill and also the analytical skills as well to be able to form a feedback thoroughly. It’s also be used as a constructive criticism, allowing the tutors to progress and also improve their technical coaching or

training skills and also be able to develop the skills or even the quality of the portfolio and also building the apprentices confidence to be able to excel in the apprenticeship journey or any other funded programs essentially. I think, yeah, again, just wanna wrap this up. It’s really, really key and being able to analyze and evaluate like a piece of portfolio

Mark Simpkins (22:39.811)
ultimate.

Ying Kit Lim (22:53.69)
That’s one thing that a typical provider would look for.

Mark Simpkins (22:56.387)
Ultimately, IQAs are there in the business to raise the standards, to improve and make sure that the curriculum standard is high, the observation, know, to the teaching and learning is high. The work scrutiny and the trainers and the assessors, they are conducted and having, you know, professional development of themselves in order to raise the standards. They are there to just to raise the standards, right, and to bridge that gap. And, yep, that’s what they’re there to do.

Ying Kit Lim (23:15.665)
Mm -hmm.

Ying Kit Lim (23:26.812)
Absolutely, 100

Mark Simpkins (23:27.995)
Brilliant. Well, look, we’ll bring it to a close there, Ying. Thank you ever so much for being here today and for going through your experiences of what an IQA is. So, yeah, thanks for being here today.

Ying Kit Lim (23:45.09)
Thank you for the invite, Mark. I appreciate it. And I enjoy being here as well.

Mark Simpkins (23:46.385)
Great. So that’s a wrap today then of this edition of FE Gold. Hopefully you’ve gained some valuable tips and inspiration to improve your FE position. Ying, if a provider wanted to get some more advice or anything, how would they get hold of you?

Ying Kit Lim (24:04.049)
They can get me through LinkedIn directly or again if there’s any recommendation you can always pass my details to the providers anytime.

Mark Simpkins (24:12.155)
Great, yeah, LinkedIn is the place to be, right? If you’ve enjoyed the show, tell your connections, friends and colleagues, that will obviously help it grow. If you want to engage in quality solutions, you know you can catch me at simpkinsfequalityconsulting .co .uk and of course you will find me on LinkedIn too. So that’s been Fe Gold with me, your host, Mark Simpkins and Ying. Thanks again

Ying Kit Lim (24:15.29)
Yeah.

Mark Simpkins (24:41.009)
Thanks for stopping by.

Ying Kit Lim (24:44.294)
You’re welcome. Thank you very much. Bye everyone.